Flat Earth Biblical Literalism
Bizarre, SCIENCE AND TECH

Flat Earthers And Literal Biblical Madness

Some Questions For Flat-Earth Biblical Literalists

You seem to make a great deal of this flat earth model you propose, based on your “science” (which, is in fact, not science at all; because you propose many theories which are easily disproven, but when you are shown proofs, the typical response is that those who offer these proofs are liars and conspiracists).

Look. I understand the thrill of a good conspiracy theory – the feeling of being part of the “in the know” crowd and of being privy to inside information.

Look. I do believe in some conspiracies.

For instance, I’m with you (probably) on the whole one-world government thing.

I really am. And I understand that we can’t, in fact, trust everybody. It’s wise to look into things yourself and see if you have actual facts to back up your claims.

I understand that most of you do not trust NASA, even though the globe model isn’t owned by them. In fact, it wasn’t even invented by them. It’s been around for many centuries now.

Does The Bible Teach A Flat Earth?

Flat-Earthers Are Usually Bible Believers. I respect that. I am one, too.

And my observation is that typically, it is bible-believers who are the drivers of this theory perpetuating the flat earth with a dome over top of it. You get this concept from looking at the scriptures. And because you believe the bible to be the word of God, you value it highly and believe what it says.

Although I am a bible believer, I interpret these passages differently than you do; but I do believe the bible to be God’s word. And because I believe it is God’s word, I can understand its power and authority as a religious text.

Like you, there are many things that you and I believe in common that the world considers crazy. But we believe it because God said it. So I’m with you on the idea that if God says it, I believe it.

But like you (I HOPE like you) I also recognize there is room for literary context, genre, the original audience and all kinds of other considerations.

We both accept the bible. We differ on interpretation.

In this area of whether the earth is flat or spherical, it seems we differ on interpretation. We look at the same passages of scripture; you take them literally, and I take them figuratively.

Now, I will grant you that I tend to take these passages that speak of the physical features of the earth as figurative. And I will also grant you that, like you, I was brought up on the spherical earth model.

So now, when I interpret these passages as poetic speech, you make the charge that I’m just twisting these passages that should be taken literally and making them figurative. I’m told I do not actually believe what the bible says. I’m adjusting my understanding to suit what I believe are the scientific facts, but which you say are NASA lies and propaganda.

Fair enough.

But here is my charge about you. You guys ignore a lot of passages that seem to contradict each other.

You jump through hoops to deal with these passages in a way that supports the ones you see as pointing to a flat earth. But you consistently seem to ignore others or quickly take as figurative when they say something that doesn’t fit your world view; and you don’t even seem to see that you’re doing it.

If you’re going to charge that these passages which point to a flat earth with a dome need to be “taken literally,” then let’s take this literal approach to the scriptures consistently. And let’s see where this goes….

Is the earth fixed and immovable? Unshakeable?

You say the earth is fixed and immovable. The bible does too.

  • “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable” (1 Chr 16:30).
  • “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm …” (Ps. 93:1).
  • “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable …” (Ps. 96:10).
  • “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…” (Isaiah 45:18).
  • “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” (Psalm 104:5).

Oh. Ok. But the bible also says it is moveable and shakeable.

  • who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble” (Job 9:6)
  • Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations also of the mountains trembled and quaked, because he was angry. (Ps 18:7)

  • The nations rage, the kingdoms totter; he utters his voice, the earth melts.(Ps. 46;60)

Is it fixed? Is it immovable? Then how does God shake the earth out of its place, if he has made it immovable? You cling to these passages that say the earth is fixed and immovable to prove that it is – well…. “fixed and immovable.” The scriptures say the earth is unshakeable, but also that it is shaken. “He has fixed the earth, firm.” “So that it can never be shaken.” “He shakes the earth out of its place, and it’s pillars tremble.” Hmmmm…. which is it? Do you admit you have a problem here if your method of interpretation is correct?

Is the earth set on pillars?

You say the earth is set on pillars. The bible does too.

  • For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and He has set the world upon them. (1 Samuel 2:8)
  • Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone[?] (Job 38:4–6)

The bible also says the earth is suspended on nothing.

  • He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing. (Job 26:7)

Now, I know I’ve had conversations with many of you who immediately ask me which translation from hell I’m using, or that I’m twisting these passages beyond their meaning to make them contradict each other. A classic and rather humerous answer I’ve gotten more than once is, “that’s right. It isn’t ‘hung’ on anything. It’s suspended on pillars.” And I guess you could go there if you want to. You could make the argument that the biblical writer was making the point that the earth isn’t hung from a hook above but suspended on pillars from underneath. But let’s be honest. Isn’t that a stretch?

Where is the cornerstone of the earth? Perhaps it’s in Antarctica somewhere where we can’t see it because the conspiracists aren’t allowing us in there to explore it for ourselves?

Aren’t you groping for something here to not have to recognize that these passages seem to contradict each other?

As “Answers In Genesis” says, “The supposed contradiction quickly disappears when we examine the context of each passage and recognize it as figurative language.”

You guys float conveniently in and out between literal and figurative interpretation on other things, too, and don’t even see it.

Does God see us or does He not see us?

  • Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are! But you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? Thick clouds veil him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’ (Job 22:12-14)

Now before you crucify me for saying this, Eliphaz here is criticizing Job, not for his cosmology, but for his ungratefulness. He doesn’t challenge the concept here that God cannot see because of the thick clouds. He is merely calling Job out on his ungrateful attitude. Eliphaz never questions Job’s cosmology.

  • The nations rage, the kingdoms totter; he utters his voice, the earth melts.(Ps. 46:60)

Sooooooo…., how often does this happen that the earth melts? The psalmist is speaking here in the present tense. You guys are claiming the literal stuff here. Help me out. Please don’t be irresponsible and dodge this one and say it is referring to the last day. It doesn’t say “He WILL make the earth melt.” It SAYS, “He MAKES the earth melt.” Present tense. Do you admit you have a problem here if your method of interpretation is correct?

What about them deer, huh?

  • The voice of the LORD makes the deer give birth and strips the forests bare. (Ps 29:9)

Forgive me if I’m sounding a little irreverent here. But you guys are the hopeless literalists. Do tell me. How often does that happen? That God speaks to put a deer into premature labor? Or is it when she is due? So people go into labor; dogs, cats, horses, all go into labor by themselves but deer need a special word from the Lord?

Is this a one-time event? An occasional event? Do the deer go into labor specifically and only because God speaks to them? Or is the psalmist’s point that God is involved in all the workings of the earth. Jesus said, “a sparrow does not fall to the ground but that your heavenly father knows it.” Isn’t the point that God is everywhere? Now, we could maybe even agree that every time any animal goes into labor, it is because God, in His sovereign care, ordains the timing of everything. I don’t take issue with you that it could  mean that.

But let’s pursue this line of reasoning a little further. And let’s see how much you guys really still believe some things from your science class. Or maybe, now some of you think that it is all God and science is all CRAP.

Does God’s voice really make the water freeze?

Here is more from the book of Job. Now, remember: you guys are the ones who started this. The book of Job is one of your favorites. You often refer to it for the dome overhead, the pillars of the earth and the like. So what does this book of Job tell us about the freezing point of water?

  • By the breath of God ice is given, and the broad waters are frozen fast. He loads the thick cloud with moisture; the clouds scatter his lightning. They turn around and around by his guidance, to accomplish all that he commands them on the face of the habitable world. (Job 37:10-12)

So, let me ask. Do you guys believe water freezes because it drops in temperature below 32 fahrenheit? Or does water freeze because God breathes on it? Does God kind of hang out close by at that temperature and literally breathe on the water? Is THAT why it freezes? What about when it melts? Does God have to pop in again at temperatures above 32F and unfreeze it? What if he doesn’t? Will it stay frozen at boiling point?

Have you given any thought to the question? You all learned in school that water freezes at 32 degrees. You’ve just accepted it. Is it true? I can just see all you guys backpedaling to your war positions, doubling down and saying, “of course He does. Don’t you believe God causes water to freeze?” Yes. I do. By the principals he has built into the fine-tuning of the universe. I don’t think he is required to be present as each snowflake is commanded to freeze and each lake and river to freeze over. He could be. But I don’t think it is required to believe that to make sense of the text: the point of the passage is that God has set the earth in place; it is his design. it is his handiwork. It happens because God has determined that it be so.

There is a fine-tuning to the universe that has certain characteristics locked in place. I don’t believe the psalmist was intending this to be taken as a science lesson, but a theological one – about the greatness of God.

Is the moon doing a bad job of ruling the night?

You guys are quick to jump on this one. I’ve heard all kinds of crap about the moon not reflecting the light of the sun because it is its own light source. Because the bible says so.

I’ve even been told by some of you that the sun emits its own “cooling blue light.” And you went and tested it yourself and now, when you step into the moonlight, you feel cooler in this “cooling moonlight” than in the shade at night. But let us look at this verse from where this comes and then take your literalism to its logical conclusion to see how ridiculous your position really is. From Genesis 1, verses 14-19...

  • And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,f and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

Can we take an honest look at this whole literal thing here? Remember, you guys started it. The moon is given to be a light upon the earth. And you all know that sometimes there are places where the moon is not visible at night, right? Because, sometimes, it’s visible somewhere else at 3:00 in the afternoon on another part of your flat-earth disk. And it can only be seen for so far. We all know there are times where the moon is not visible at night.

And after all, if, as you say, the sun is above the face of the earth all the time, and it can’t be seen at night because it’s too far away, then SURELY the moon won’t be visible where it is supposed to be lighting the night sky because it’s somewhere else instead.

So. Is the moon out of order? Did God screw up on this one? Sometimes, during the full moon, there is LOTS of moon light and we see really well. Sometimes, though, during a crescent moon, there is very little light.

This moon that was given to rule the night sometimes is sticking it’s nose into the sun’s business, no? Is the moon a failed light for the night time? After all, sometimes it works well, sometimes it’s barely doing any lighting at all. And sometimes – sometimes – its NOT EVEN OUT at night because it’s somewhere else during the day. It is very literal that God gave the moon to rule the NIGHT. Not the day, not part of the day and part of the night. Isn’t that your position?

So did God screw up because he didn’t exactly make the moon to rule the night? Or is the moon out of order? Or is it figurative language, speaking of the creation of God and his hand in it? Is it intended to be the science book you guys are trying to turn it into? Or is it poetic speech?

Perhaps the moon is generally “ruling the night” because it is seen at night when the sun is not out. But you have to admit that it sure doesn’t rule the night the way the sun rules the day. The sun is out everyday like clockwork. Not so the moon. The sun’s rule is fixed. The moon’s rule is so…. arbitrary. Maybe the sun is like a dog-friend and the moon is more like a cat-friend. Why do you give the moon a pass and just roll over and accept this? Why do you give God a pass for not spelling out clearly what He meant in His word? Why does the bible so irresponsibly treat the sun and the moon as ruling the same when one is very faithful and the other is so very arbitrary?

Do you feel threatened?

Look. I just think you guys should stop trying to be so hopelessly literal with these passages of scripture that don’t need to be taken literally for the bible to be taken seriously. Ironically, here is an interview between a flat-earther and an open-minded atheist who basically makes mincemeat of the flat-earther and his unwillingness to recognize his biases and his prejudices. Please give this an honest listen and ask yourself: do you ignore what science says because it threatens your view of scripture? It doesn’t have to.

The question the caller (Stephen) asks is, “have you examined the world in which you live? Do you believe you live on a spinning sphere because someone told you? Or do you know from personal experience?” By the time they are done, this poor flat-earther looks “not too smart.” Not trying to be mean. Just being honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsOz_J6tJVU

Look, flat-earth friends. I really do love your hearts and your passion for truth. But as I’ve written before, I think you’re hurting your own cause if you’re trying to lead people to Jesus.  You need to focus on the gospel and be willing to put this stuff aside and realize that if you focus on the “conspiracy” rather than the gospel, you’re doing more harm than good. (Especially when it is obvious to those with a firm grasp of science that you really don’t have a good understanding of this spherical model you’re knocking.)

Please be a little more careful about dismissing science you obviously don’t understand because you’ve only heard and understood one side of the argument. Most people think you are fruit-loops.

I don’t. I just think you’re misguided. But you need to take an honest look at how selectively you slide back and forth between literalism and figurative interpretation and don’t even seem to see how you’re doing it. Quit rearranging your prejudices and start to honestly think about this one. God is not any less real and his word, the Bible, is not any less reliable because these passages are figurative rather than literal.

You don’t have less of a Bible if you give up the flat-earth nonsense. You just have a more relevant one.

The Cognitive Man

(Last updated 2019-12-01)
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itanimulli
Bizarre, SCIENCE AND TECH

Itanimulli Is Illuminati spelled backwards. So, Now what?

I Always Get A Kick Out Of This One. Yup. It’s true. ITANIMULLI is ILLUMINATI spelled backwards. But does that really mean anything? Well, as it turns out, it seems that it does to some, especially in some one-world government conspiracy theorists’ minds.

First of all: Let me be clear. Do I believe in a grand “conspiracy?” You can bet your life I do.

Look. I get it. A handful of evil-minded men plotting and scheming the fates of 7 billion-plus people in the world. Do I believe that? Yes. I do.

I really do. My thoughts about it are a little more nuanced than you might want them to be. But I believe it absolutely.

But my thoughts here, my good bible-believing friends, are to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, so we can zero in on what is significant and what is important regarding this stuff.

So, back to the whole “Itanimulli-Illuminati” issue.

Itanimulli Illuminati – For Any Good Conspiracy Theorist

Some people believe it is part of the grand conspiracy theory. Kind of like hiding in plain sight. Letting you know with code that the NSA is part of a grand demonic conspiracy.

Now, the trick about this one is that, like a lot of other stuff from the “backmasking” crowd, their reasons for thinking so are not without some merit; at least not when you first take a look at a shocking fact that is circulating in videos on Facebook that are getting shared and posted and reshared and reposted, like this one. The fact is that when you type “itanimulli” into google and search it, the top hit on the web site is a link to “the National Security Agency – NSA/CSS.”

(Go ahead. We will wait while you try it. We know you want to…..)

Got it? Ok. Good. You’re with us so far.

So now, as the theory goes (and we’ve been aware of several videos that have gotten a LOT of traction on Facebook, such as this one) that this is a big clue that the NSA is part of the one-world government conspiracy. It’s like they put it right out there for ya, waiting for you to make the link in your brain, or to keep you guessing. Or to laugh at you because you’re too stupid to take it seriously.

Now, if you have that google page open, you can look just down the page and see a whole bunch of links that debunk the whole conspiracy theory stuff with an explanation of the link and why it takes you to the NSA web site and the like.

But instead of taking our word for it, try it yourself instead. Go to Google and type in, “how to find out who owns a domain name.” Domain owners can choose to make their information private. But the owner of “itanimulli.com” has not chosen to do so.

So how do you find out who the owner of this name is? We came up with this info, at the following link  – http://www.netim.com/domain-name/whois-search.html

Anyway, if you go to the page on GoDaddy and do a search on the domain name (it is registered with them) and follow the pages enough with a search, and go through the stuff on the pages that checks to see that you’re not a bot, it will give you a whole bunch of info about the guy.

Basically, John Fenley is still the registered user of the domain name. He lives in Provo, Utah.

According to Snopes.com, Fenley registered this domain name as a joke. Fenley says, “I decided to forward the domain Itanimulli.com domain to the NSA as a joke … kind of like a rickroll + shock site. I registered the website years ago precisely because it does spell Illuminati backwards, but didn’t really do anything with it for a long time. When I had the idea to forward the domain to the NSA I couldn’t pass it up, and couldn’t stop laughing.” (By the way, snopes.com seems to be a useful second opinion on a lot of stuff. But like everyone else, don’t count on everything there. You know how it goes.)

Do we believe in the Illuminatti? We certainly lean that way. And we are working on getting to all of the stuff – the Bilderburgs, the Federal Reserve, George Soros and the like, and how those in the know and in the money there are tied philosophically to these types of ideas of domination and control of our society. Do we believe there are plans by people high up the food chain who have intentions of implementing a one-world government? Absolutely. We’ve uncovered a LOT of stuff and are working to put it up here, though decently and in order without a lot of falling into holes that lead nowhere except to stupid.

Fenley doesn’t believe it, at least according to the article about him on snopes, And the thing is, when skeptics do this, and people who believe in this stuff jump on these videos, and post and re-post them on Facebook for all our friends to see, we become a laughing stock.

Do we believe there are sinister forces at work behind the formation of many of the government bureaus? We do, at least indirectly. Dark, sinister, demonic forces? In a word, we’ll just say “let’s see where this all goes.” You can fill in the rest. In our opinion, in the end, it’s the only way it all fits together into a unified world view.

But we’ve seen some ridiculous things out there too, and it seemed time for a blog against some really whacko stuff out there.

Don’t get us wrong. It wouldn’t come as a surprise if some of these things are driven by evil-minded people with sinister motives. But it seems prudent, when confronted by some of the things you see out there, to do a little research. And it also seems that, when confronted with something that looks sinister or evil or one-world-government-ish or the like, to see if there is a normal and rational explanation for what is going on.

Otherwise, we lend credibility to the theory that we are a bunch of crackpots.

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non-stop flights southern hemisphere
Bizarre, SCIENCE AND TECH

Flat Earthers Must Be Afraid To Fly

(Last updated by The Cognitive Man 2020-01-08)

Ok. Maybe flat-earthers aren’t afraid to fly. But they sure seem “comforted” by the notion that there are no direct flights in the Southern Hemisphere.

Now, I don’t think they are actually afraid of planes, or flying in general. But I think flat-earthers are afraid of what the implications are if they ever actually acknowledge that these non-stop flights in the southern hemisphere actually take to the air and land, and actually do so in the amounts of time they say they do.

Because if they do (as I’m willing to bet my life they do) then their whole flat-earth model goes out the window.

NO DIRECT FLIGHTS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: WHY THAT IS SO TROUBLING.

I do think there is a very real “fear factor” for the flat-earther if it turns out we are just floating on a big ball, after all. In fact, I’ve written about this aspect of their thinking before. Perhaps the title of the other article is a little harsh; but it goes beyond normal when these people, at best, do not want to answer any of the questions I ask them when we have a chance to interact; and, at worst, accuse me of being antichrist.

I BELIEVE IN A GOOD CONSPIRACY, TOO.

Firs of all, my “flat-earth believing friend,” I’m on your side. I really, really am. I honestly think it is likely that I believe in a lot of the conspiracies you do. Let’s run a list here, just to give you a better feel that I’m not a liberal and I’m not the enemy here.

  • One-world government? Check. I believe “they” have been working on it for a while, and it’s only a matter of time, I expect. But they don’t always get what they want.
  • 9/11 an inside job? Not sure. Some pretty convincing evidence out there. By the Illuminati? Freemasons? Don’t know. But I’m open to suggestions.
  • Crop circles? I know there are a lot of fakes out there. But they can’t all be fakes.
  • Aliens? Of course. Too much evidence to deny it. But I’m inclined to believe a lot of them aren’t “extra-terrestrial” but “extra-dimensional” (read that “demonic manifestation”).
  • Are “they” hiding things from you? Hell, yeah. Let me give you a few examples: Hebrew inscriptions on the cave walls where the Indians lived in the Grand Canyon?
  • 12 to 16 foot skeletons found and scooped up by the Smithsonian, never to be displayed again? Hell, yeah. Sign me up. LOTS of credible, intelligent people with too much evidence to deny it.

Do you see where I am going with this? My point is that I hear you when you cry “foul” about much of what is presented to you as “science” and “fact.” I really, really feel you.

BUT YOU  HAVE TO KNOW WHEN TO QUIT

I’m sure things are never quite the way they seem. And I’m willing to bet that there is a lot that the government is keeping from us; a lot about which they are trying to distract us. The “powers that be” want to stay in power, and so I’m willing to bet that many of them conspire to keep things out of the media, force things into the educational agenda and the like. But every conspiracy theory has its limits before it simply falls down.

Like this notion that flat-earthers have about non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere.

YES, VIRGINIA. THERE ARE NON-STOP FLIGHTS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE

Well, there are, depending on who you ask. But if you ask anyone who says, “of course there are non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere,” the flat-earthers will tell you they don’t know what they’re talking about. Just ask them.

You see, if you think about it, if the earth is really a ball (and the flat-earthers are quick to point out that the bible describes it as flat – like the U. N. map shows it) then  non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere – say, from Sydney, Australia to Santiago, Chile, for instance, would quickly prove the point. Because, as you can imagine, if the earth were flat, then at an air speed of say, 600 MPH, it would take you about about 25 hours, give or take, to fly from Sydney to Santiago. So if the airlines could pull it off, they’d have to fly about 2,500 MPH to do that. And we all know airplanes don’t fly that fast.

So for flat-earther, the case is proven.

They claim the reason there are no non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere must be because it is impossible to do it.

Now anybody else would just go to Google and look for “Non-Stop Flights In The Southern Hemisphere” and quickly discover that the first items to come up are all the commercial listings – airlines and such, listing options to try to quickly sell you tickets to fly in the southern hemisphere.

BUT….. the flat-earthers would quickly say, “they’re not real.”

The knee-jerk reaction from the flat-earth crowd is that they’re staged: these flights don’t exist. The authorities are in on it.

Look. I get it. With all the other stuff they’re hiding from us, why not this, too?

By flat-earth theory, the government, in an effort to keep the word from getting out, has commandeered the airline industry and forced them to list flights on their websites that do not really exist, to give the appearance that they actually run these flights.

There is a problem with the level of human and government control and “conspiratorial machinery” that is required to keep all this going.

This would require such a vast array of so many sections of the population to keep this conspiratorial train running that after a while, the wheels all come off.

I’m not the only one who thinks this notion is paranoia on steroids. Check out this video, for instance:

I wonder if it ever occurred to these people how much more difficult it would be to keep every airline pilot, every ship’s captain, every employee at every company who builds this navigation equipment dumb and/or silent about this great conspiracy.

You have to realize that a conspiracy this big would have to keep a lot of people silenced, or dumbed down, or paid off or something. There’s no accounting for how far a predisposition to want to believe something will take you.

How open are you really to the idea that if this theory is true, it requires some real scrutiny of the facts and not just an excitement from the adrenaline rush of thinking you’re part of the “small, in-the-know” crowd?

I’m sorry to have to say it, but my experience interacting with many who hold to these theories is that they often seem a little short on in-depth knowledge of the sciences. That isn’t a put-down. But it is a fact.

THE FLAT EARTH SOCIETY IS RICH WITH THEORIES OFF THE CUFF

I found this, one of the most amusing conversations on the topic, at One of the less-conditioned in their midst, at the Flat Earth Society website. They have a forum, and one of the issues that came up on this forum was a conversation by one of the fairly recently-initiated with some of the more “enlightened” members of the group.

To my fellow flat earthers, we might have a problem:

Flat-Earther questioning non-stop flight from QuantasI found this problematic flight for our theory, in that from Sydney(Australia) to Santiago(Chile) this direct flight only takes 12 hours and 30 minutes, which seems in line with the spherical earth theory.

Please help me out, because I can’t find an explanation for this, although I am still convinced of the earth being flat. The curvature formula vs. the photos and videos proves to me that the earth is flat, but this flight (the only one in contrast with our theory) poses a problem that we need to solve.

This, too, seems to confirm that the flight takes as much time as it can only take with a spherical earth:

I mean, we do have a problem. The amount of shills on this forum seemed to confirm to me the flat earth, but now I realize that they may all be people who love science and enjoy arguing. Or people who like ganging up on minorities. But… we do have a problem.

The curvature formula (when compared to existing pictures and videos) still proves flat earth, but we definitely need to debunk this flight. 

And if we cannot debunk this flight, and these flights do exist and they go as fast as they claim, flying over the path they claim, then we need to revise our official flat earth map:

Now, this fellow is downright concerned about this, and I can see with good reason. Like most flat-earthers, they were raised with a concept of a spherical planet. When they first come into this “new knowledge” of the earth being flat, and the corresponding notion that the powers that be are lying to them about it, it opens a whole new world of espionage with a corresponding bit of intrigue and inside knowledge which often makes them feel more “enlightened” and, I believe, (sometimes) just a wee bit smugly superior to all of the rest of us dopes that still believe what has been taught to us in school.

But this fellow got the kind of response to his honest inquiry that I often get when I try to help these people see that maybe they’re missing something.

Listen to these responses:

First, this one, from a humble flat-earther:

Acenci, the problem is that we don’t know what the real map looks like. Consequently, we can’t estimate any distances within the FE model. This doesn’t mean that the Earth is not flat though. The RE map is also wrong, and it is blatantly clear in its most common flat version which is based on a projection. On a globe allegedly everything matches with reality, but who exactly uses globes for navigation. What I am saying is that it is all relative, and it is true that the FE’ers don’t have a very solid argument as to how exactly it all works and there are many holes in the theory. However, because we don’t know how exactly it works and what it looks like doesn’t mean the Earth is a sphere or spins. Of course, that is debatable, and if you haven’t been to space you can’t personally be 100% sure, I guess.

But that does not seem to be an adequate explanation for our humble inquirer. He publishes a bunch of corraborative data, including various videos of the flights in question, newspaper posts about people getting sick on these 13 hour flights (which seems to support the idea that it really is a non-stop flight on a planet that has to be a ball for it to happen on schedule) and pushes the point with his fellow believers:

Flat-earthers, this flight seems to exist and so our mainstream flat-earth map must be wrong. Let us quickly address this problem and find a solution. Please someone answer me. This is not acceptable. And the famous UN map, which supposedly represents the real flat earth map, must be wrong, too.

Now, if the flight exists, and if it does fly at the regular cruising speed, then how does this fit into the [flat earth] map?

I acknowledge a real sincerity here.

It seems like an honest question, and he seems to have a need for honest information.

And there is no end to the ad-hoc speculations about how everyone plays to the conspiracy. Like this gem: a well-meaning flat earther who decides to offer the explanation that planes will maybe actually be able to fly much faster than they let on, even if the flight is real:

…in addition, pilots will want money too. we aren’t told the full capabilities of their planes, and they adapt the speed they fly at accordingly. if they’re so reliable, why would there be any delays or early arrivals? simply, they make human error in how much they accelerate.

You know – as if these puppies maybe actually CAN fly at about 2,000 MPH when they have to put on the glitz to pretend the earth is round, but they usually just fly about 1/3 of full speed just to keep it hidden so the secret doesn’t get out. Can’t blame a guy for trying.

You have to ask, though: what would be the motivation here? What about the business interests that would be served if you could fly anywhere at 2,500 MPH?

Maybe I digress too fast. But it is something to think about.

Anyway, back to the flat-earth website. Not everyone was so civil to this well-meaning inquirer. Like this (understandably, I think) frustrated flat-earth doubter:

So now pilots are in on the conspiracy, who isn’t in on it at this point?  And if you are fed up with airline delays, why don’t you start an FE airline, always on time because FE pilots ‘think for themselves’.  Oh, wait, there is not a single FE pilot in the world.

Personally, I can’t blame him for being frustrated.

BUT SEE WHAT A GOOD FLAT-EARTH THEOLOGIAN CAN DO

Here is a case where the true colors of some of these people come out. Their belief is held with religious zeal. And when someone pushes the questions, there is always the trick (ironically, usually employed by the liberals) to attack the messenger with the honest question.

I don’t think you were ever an flat earther.  You tried to get some chops as an FEer, and are now slowly loosing all your own arguments.  It is a pretty obvious RE attempt to subvert from the inside.  Nice try, but I don’t approve, it muddies the water.

Wow. That was harsh. And knee-jerk. The poor guy is just asking honest questions. He is going through the experience of a little bit of cognitive dissonance. But he gets jumped on because he is rocking the boat.

A worthwhile here for my flat-earth friends (and, actually, for everybody else, even including me) is this: if I ask a question for which you don’t have an answer, please don’t have the audacity to automatically assume that I’M THE ONE who is unteachable.

I’m just asking questions maybe you should have been asking, too. If you can swallow your pride, you MIGHT even realize I just did both of us a favor. But your honesty might require you to have to accept you need yet another change in world view. Don’t shoot the messenger.

MAYBE FLAT-EARTHERS ARE JUST AFRAID TO FLY.

Ok. I’m kidding.

And I won’t deny that it’s HARD to find non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere. I have to admit that, compared to the vast number of flights in the Northern Hemisphere, there aren’t that many direct flights between continents in the Southern Hemisphere.

But the flat-earthers seem to not want to be able to find any non-stop flights anywhere between Africa, South America and Australia.

But they exist. There are answers for the problem they seem to find. Things like airline profitability and “supply and demand.”

The trouble is, the flat-earthers don’t seem to want to hear them. And when you suggest real and reasonable explanations for why they are wrong, you become the antichrist. I’ve had them swear at me and call me a fool. I even had one on FaceBook call me antichrist. How upsetting. I was crushed.     ;-))

If you truly believe the earth is flat, I appreciate your zeal in trying to prove it.

I admire the fact that you want to find a way to be able to accept the authority of scripture and not have it conflict with your world view. But you can’t bend truth to suit your preconceptions.

God’s word will never contradict the truth of His creation. But His word may very well contradict your concept of His creation if your concept of His creation is wrong.

The problem is that if you apply a literal requirement to some of the passages that were written as poetry, you end up with conflicts, too.

If you have to go here now, check out the problems that come up with inconsistency with your literal filter on scripture on passages that were meant to be taken seriously but NOT to be taken literally. (But if you can, please read that article after this one. I don’t want to lose you.)

First of all, though we may disagree for the moment on how to interpret these passages, can we at least agree on this?

Bending truth to suit your presuppositions is not thinking. It’s simply re-arranging your prejudices.

And it’s not helping your witness. It distracts from the major issues in this world about which all Christians agree: Jesus came into this world to save sinners.

You know, I’m on the PlaneFinder web site (the one referenced in the first video, above) as I write, watching a flight or two, tracking them as I sit here, seeing them fly on routes that would take much longer if the earth were flat than it does in reality (because it is spherical).

And while I do this, I’m struck both by the technology that we have in place to see all this stuff in real time and how small this world really is when you can traverse it so quickly, so easily. We can be halfway around in a day, in a different culture you’ve never seen before. It’s an amazing world. And it’s also a world full of people who don’t know Jesus.

Flat earthers, as I’ve said before and written about elsewhere before, I know your hearts are good. You appreciate the scriptures as God’s revelation to us. You want to maintain the integrity of that in people’s minds.

But you’re not helping your cause when you have your minds made up that everyone who thinks this world is spherical is out to get you, and you don’t have the humility to acknowledge how much you really don’t know. And you aren’t willing to exercise the patience to learn from those who have studied this for years, some of whom know and love the same saviour you do, and who know a whole bunch more that you need to know before you even begin to realize how much you don’t know what you are talking about.

Let’s stop worrying about something that wouldn’t make a wit of difference even if it were true. Because flat or round, this earth is covered with billions of people, many of whom will not be in eternity with their Creator when they leave it. And we need to worry about THAT.

(Last updated by The Cognitive Man 2020-01-08)
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flat earth theory
Bizarre, SCIENCE AND TECH

Flat Earthers, I Love You, But COME ON

I haven’t been at this blogging thing for all that long now. But having done it for about 9 months now, on and off, I’ve developed an appreciation for those of you who have been in it for the long haul – people who are passionate about what they believe, and who are passionate enough about it to spend the long hours writing, making audio and video presentations about what they believe to be true.

I Love The Passion You Have For Truth

I know there are a number of you out there, and I wouldn’t be so bold as to say I know what all of you believe on everything. I’ve come across some of you who are Buddhist, for instance. But for the most part, it seems that you are fellow bible believers who want to lift up the name of Jesus and help people to see the uniqueness of the Earth in the universe and in God’s plan of the ages.

I am writing this because I stumbled onto a web site this morning – The Arctic Beacon – where one of the authors there – Greg – was doing a podcast about the flat earth…

I tried to post a comment on his blog in response to what I was hearing, but “the cookie monster” was giving me fits – I tried with both Chrome and Safari, so I’m thinking the problem was on the other end. However, since I could not post my comment there, I will post it here, hoping he can see the article and hear my heart.

An “Open Comment” To Greg At Arctic Beacon

Here is the comment I was going to post over there, and I do hope the flat-earthers out there who read this will appreciate what I believe is an important point here. So, here is the comment I would have posted, if I had opportunity to do so…

Hi Greg;

I think you must know about my site because when I was checking Google Analytics this morning, I saw something about your web site in there. So I’m not sure how or where I might be linked in your stuff, but (I THINK) I’m flattered that you maybe mentioned me in your writing.

Thanks! I guess I’m FAMOUS now! A legend in my own mind!

Seriously, this blogging thing is HARD WORK. I commend you for what looks like something you’ve been faithful to for a while now, and for your efforts to promote truth in the world.

Though you probably realize I disagree with you about the earth being flat, I probably do agree with you on many other points. (Personally, for instance, I do lean toward the idea that 9/11 looks like an inside job. I may post that article again but I want to go over it again first.) I’m also quite concerned, as are a lot of Catholics, about the corruption within the Vatican and what seems to be some dancing with hell in high places.

The reason I wanted to touch base was just to say that I believe God is pleased with people who want to worship Him, who want to lift up His son Jesus, who want to uphold the integrity of the word of God.

Personally, I don’t think the facts support the earth being flat; I’ve listened to Eric Dubai many times, many hours, refuted so much of what he has said in private conversations with flat-earthers – who I love deeply, though we disagree with this “earth is flat” thing. I find his science is regrettable; but like most flat-earthers, his heart seems to be in the right place. And with the amount of misinformation out there these days, I can appreciate the skepticism. I just think he throws the twenty-five hundred year old round-earth baby out with the disinformation bathwater.

But I can appreciate believers who believe that based on how they (I think wrongly, but with a good heart) read the bible, because they love God and want to uphold our unique place in the universe, and want to give proper recognition of the authority of scripture.

I’m sure we could go back and forth on it. Maybe someday we can. But in the meantime, I have to say that I love what you’re doing – researching what you believe is true, proclaiming what you believe is true, and with what seems like a true spirit of humility. I’ve listened to a bit of your podcast you linked to above, and you seem to have a humble heart.

God is pleased with that.

Keep up the good work. Maybe we can do some guest-blogging back and forth sometime…..

God bless, brother.

In Christ,

“Cogny”

I’m Passionate About Truth Too

I wrote this partly because I don’t know any other way to get Greg to see it – couldn’t find an email at his site – but also, as I wrote the comment first to him, but then his site not allowing me to actually post the comment, I realized maybe it would be good to do it here, so that others could appreciate where some of us on the “spherical earth” side of this debate are coming from.

I don’t speak for everyone who believes the earth is round. That would be impossible. But as a Christian who holds firmly to the authority of scripture, but sees room for poetic language which speaks of the wonder and majesty of the heavens and the earth, I wanted to share my heart with you about all of this.

Not EVERYTHING Is A Conspiracy

I will just make this final statement here. I will probably come back to this in the future, but for now, I would like to say this.

I appreciate your desire to promote the truth of the scriptures about the earth being central to God’s plan of the ages – it speaks in Ephesians of how the church is an object lesson to the principalities and powers of what God’s plan was from eternity past. We are a demonstration to them of what God had planned before he made us OR them. (Eph. 3:6-10)

But at the same time, you have to realize that us “spherical earth Christians” (along with pretty much most people in the world who don’t know Jesus) think that your over-the-top suspicions about soooooo many people and motives for hiding this stuff destroys your credibility – ironically, with the very people you are trying to reach with your message of the uniqueness of the earth and it’s place in the universe and the story of the ages.

So, in all your looking at all these pictures and videos on YouTube about how we’ve been duped, and how the earth is flat, and how the sun mysteriously floats over top (though you never offer a plausible explanation as to how or why it does) try to be open to the other side of this. Let me assure you: the bible doesn’t fall down if your flat earth theory does.

The word of God is sure. It lives and remains forever. And god will not violate His word. We can all agree on that. But He is also not afraid to violate your understanding of His word if your understanding is wrong.

Once again, even though I disagree with you guys, I love your hearts. Just, please…. be open the possibility that the earth doesn’t have to be flat for God’s word to be sure. Because people are laughing at regrettable “science” that is actually hindering your message to people that they need Jesus.

Sincerely,

“Cogny”

The Cogntive Man

(Last updated 2016-04-23)
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Flat Earth Crazy
Bizarre, SCIENCE AND TECH

Flat Earth Theory Is A Mental Disease

Ok. Maybe that’s a little harsh toward those out there who have actually bought into this idea that the earth is flat. But I have to confess: if you actually do buy into this idea that the earth is flat, know that I wrote the article partly with a motive: I was trying to get your attention. And if you’re one of them, please be patient while you see where I’m trying to go with this, while I talk to the rest of them out there who would just dismiss you as crazy.

Yes, Virginia. Some People DO Think This World Is Flat

It’s hard to believe for most, but there are a lot of people out there who believe the earth is flat. Not only are they out there, but from common observation and interaction with them, it seems they are growing in number. Take a look at the Flat Earth Society website, for instance, and see how much interaction there is on that page in the discussion forums.

They Are Among Us

For you speherical-earthers out there, be aware that I want to be charitable to flat-earthers as I write. You see, I can appreciate and respect that their motives are good. There is a common thread among most of them that holds a high view of the bible as the word of God. And I agree with them on that one. For whatever your view of the world and of history, I do believe the bible to be a book unique in history as a clear revelation from God. For the record, I will say that I believe in the God of the bible.

But one of the marks of teachability is admitting you don’t have answers for the questions that you are asked. And if people ask you questions and you don’t have answers, you need to at least acknowledge that maybe you don’t know enough to make a firm conclusion. And with regard to this flat-earth theory, the lack of understanding of basic math and physics in this community is below the level of a general grade 10 science class. As a result, their reasoning for believing what they do about the earth being flat is regrettable.

Flat-earthers seem to share a common thought pattern, and it ain’t pretty

There seems to be a common theme among those who hold to flat-earth theory. Because they believe the bible, they believe we must take the bible seriously (not an unreasonable position, in and of itself). That I wholeheartedly agree with. But where they seem to fall down (and, like Steve Urkle, they can’t get up again) is that they draw the unfortunate conclusion that to take the biblical descriptions of the earth seriously requires that they be taken literally. And a simple observation of things around us seems, at a casual glance, to support the idea that a literal approach to these biblical passages is appropriate.

For the flat-earthers, the bible says it, and so they believe it. That settles it. What they seem to miss (or perhaps, not want to deal with) is that they have a good handle on what the bible says; they might not have a good handle on what it means. As Bill Johnson has said before, God will never violate his word. But he is perfectly willing to violate your understanding of his word, if your understanding is wrong.

And I would contend that their understanding is simply wrong. After all, the science is settled, right? Isn’t it simply the right thing to simply accept these passages of the bible as poetic speech? If we do that, then these difficulties go away, no?

They think the science is “part of the conspiracy”

It’s true. They really have little regard for the scientific research and data that demonstrates the reality of a spherical earth. They’ve taken these passages of scripture and simply written off everything in the fields of physics and astronomy as part of a vast government conspiracy to keep us in the dark and to keep us from knowing the God of the Bible.

(If you’re curious, I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist myself. Just not on this one.)

But They Would Ask You A Few Questions, Too

In their defence, perhaps it’s a fair question to ask: can you accurately handle the word of God and simply write these passages of scripture all off as poetic speech? Is that fair to the original intent of the passages?

For those who laugh at these naive souls, let me ask you a few questions. For those familiar with the bible, you’ll know that there are numerous references in the scriptures to suggest a flat earth, suspended on pillars with a fixed dome forming the sky. You might think that is a ridiculous notion. But like I’ve said, so much of what we believe, we believe without having really thought it through, so much as we believe it because it’s what we’ve been taught. If we’ve never had reason to question it, we kind of go for a ride on what we are taught, when what we’ve been taught all along might well be wrong. After all, before Coprenicus and Galileo, people held a common belief the earth was flat. These guys had to challenge a system that wanted their heads for proposing theories that challenged biblical norms.

So, dear reader, let me ask you questions that they would ask. Could you prove from looking at the sun, moon and stars that the earth is moving around the sun, and not the other way around? Can you explain why you can’t see any curve to the earth? If the earth is round, can you explain why the water doesn’t run off the edges? You say it is because of gravity. Fair enough. But can you explain gravity? Many people have a rough idea. Most people accept it as fact, and accept the explanations as true without serious question.

Flat-Earthers Also Share A Common Emotion

In discussing these matters of the solar system, of galaxies, of gravity, of the bending of light and properties of light in the atmosphere, another common theme emerges. It is a common emotion. And that common emotion is paranoia. Flat-earthers do seem paranoid; or if paranoia may be a strong term, then at least it should be classified as a strong mistrust of science and the institutions behind it. They seem, for instance, to have a particular loathing for anything published as fact by NASA.

Just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.

When you point out that they don’t seem to have a reasonable grasp of the science behind the claims that the earth is spherical, some are quick to agree with you. It almost seems to be a badge of honour for some of them that they don’t have to know how the science works; since it contradicts the bible, it can simply be dismissed as part of the lie.

This audio clip from YouTube might be a good source of understanding of the mindset of the typical flat-earther:


Now, I’ve often said to people that just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you. But in the case of the flat-earthers , what really motivates them is this concern that the people behind the globe model are really out to get YOU. They are not really concerned for their own souls. They are confident that theirs are safely in the arms of Jesus. They have seen the enemy; they are aware of his devices; they are aware of a higher truth.

Their concern is that you, as a spherical-earther, are probably sucked in by the great deception: the deception that the earth is not really the center of the universe. To them, science is the great henchman of the devil, where the spherical earth, evolution and the great atheistic deception are all part of a grand chain of lies designed to drag people off to hell.

Can you see where they are coming from? They believe that the concept of the earth spinning as a ball in space, not unique, but one of possibly an innumerable number of potentially inhabited planets makes the earth not so special. They believe that it is part of a government plot to control the masses and to keep them in the dark about the existence of a God who will hold us accountable for all that we do in this lifetime.

Now, in fairness to the flat-earthers, I have to say that I hold a common belief with them: I hold to a view that in a very unique way, the earth really is the stage for the drama of the ages; that we hold a unique place in God’s design of the universe. I can’t prove it from the physics, though. I just can’t. But I can see it in the scriptures, and whether the earth is flat or spherical wouldn’t affect the reality of that one way or the other for me. But…

I don’t believe the earth is flat.

Everything I experience in this world tells me that it’s plausible the earth goes around the sun. It would not be my first conclusion looking at it; but when I hear the explanations for it, it is possible. Can I prove the earth goes around the sun? I believe it is provable by careful observation of the position of the sun, moon and stars. Can you prove the sun goes around the earth? I don’t think you can offer any proof of that in any meaningful way that would hold up under serious investigation.

But I DO see that the sun goes overhead during the day. It doesn’t circle around the face of a flat earth disc. This is where the flat-earthers TOTALLY lose credibility. They offer all KINDS of silly explanations as to how the sun circles overhead (rather than over and under) but every one of their explanations falls down. I’ve been on cruise ships, watched the sun rise and the sun set. It is a ball. It is the same size before it drops below the horizon line as  it is on the way down. When the cloud cover is heavy during the day but enough to let the sun shine through (barely) the sun is the same size in the sky at midday as it is at sunrise and sunset.

Every you-tube video that I’ve been advised to watch seems to start with a premise about what the spherical earth model teaches that is not what the spherical-earth model teaches; and then, they develop all kinds of ridiculous theories about why these models are wrong. But they haven’t got a clue what the spherical model really is. They attack straw men. And they lead many others into their confusion and resulting paranoia.

It’s Not About Science; It’s About Being “More Enlightened

Flat-earthers don’t have much regard for the sciences. As Eric Dubay says in the above video,

Our eyes and experience tell us the earth is flat and motionless. Everything in the sky revolves around us but when we ceased to believe her own eyes and experience we have to prostrate ourselves at the feet of these very pseudo-scientists who are blinding us, treat them as experts – astronomical priests who have special knowledge only they can access like the Hubble telescope. So by brainwashing us about something so gigantic and fundamental it actually makes every other kind of lesser indoctrination a piece of cake. The earth being the flat, fixed center of the universe around which everything in the heavens revolves gives the special importance and significance not only to earth but to us humans – the most intelligent among the intelligent designer’s designs. By turning the earth into a spinning ball thrown around the Sun and shot through infinite space from a godless big bang, they turned humanity into a random meaningless purposeless accident in a blind, dumb universe.

I get the desire to appreciate the uniqueness of the earth in the story of God’s creation and of the story of the ages. But I can’t park the brain God gave me at the gate to be able to accept their ridiculous explanations that the sun is not going below the horizon but is disappearing off into the distance.

You See, Things Are NOT Always What They Appear

Take a look at this YouTube video of optical illusions. As Eric Dubay would say, “Our eyes and experience tell us the earth is flat and motionless.” Yes. They do. But what about the things you see in this video? Things are not always as they appear.

Sorry, but it feels like spiritual pride

In my experience with people dealing with a combination of trust issues and a slight spiritual smugness about having a “higher revelation” than others, it is hard to get through to them. Most of them had accepted the spherical model, and now, because of “better” information, they believe they have arrived at a “higher” truth.

And, in the end, I think it is the smugness they often seem to portray that bothers me a bit. When you have a lack of teachability, a lack of scientific knowledge, a lack of mental stamina to track with explanations of what “is” by careful observation and combine it with a bit of paranoia and a false sense that you are somehow more “spiritual” than others because of a “higher regard” for scripture (where literalness is next to godliness) you have a recipe for a conversation that feels like it will never be settled.

Flat-earthers, I wish you well. I really do. But you have to realize that you destroy your credibility with the very people you purport to want to reach with the gospel of Jesus simply by not being willing to accept that your interpretation and application of scripture might be more appealing, but less accurate. The end result is a facade of spirituality that might, in the end, be nothing more than a spiritual pride.

(by The Cognitive Man. Last updated 2016-04-23)
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